bedwetting in child _{Page 4 of 6}

Dear Murthy,

The concept of first sleep(first part of the night) is almost gone.
Children sleep well after midnight.

sajjad.

WoW.

Boericke too talks about Enuresis while discussing Calc.

Urine.--Dark, brown, sour, fetid, abundant, with white sediment, bloody. Irritable bladder. Enuresis (Use 30th, also Tuberculin. 1 m.).

blank">http://homeoint.org/books/boericmm/c/calc.htm

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Just to make sure what is meant by enuresis, I googled for it, and this is the first result.

Enuresis (Bed-Wetting) -- familydoctor.orgInformation for parents about enuresis (bed-wetting) from the American Academy of Family Physicians.

So, it is obvious that Boericke too is talking about Calc being useful for bed wetting.

Murthy

And Boericke discusses about Enuresis in all these remedies.

Benzoicum acidum

Calcarea carbonica

Coca

Equisetum

Ferrum phosphoricum

Kali phosphoricum

Kreosotum

Linaria

Medorrhinum

Physalis solanum vesicarium

Plantago major

Radium

Rhus aromatic

Sabal serrulata

Sanicula aqua

Santoninum

Secale cornutum

Silicea

Sulphur

Thyroidinum

Thanks Rajendra

for making do all these searches. I am more clear now myself.:-)

Murthy

Boger said the same.
Tuberculinum because enuresis belongs to to this miasm.

sajjad.

Though off the topic, let me include here the remedies Boericke discusses for worms.


Apocynum androsaemifolium

Chelone

Cina

Cocaina

Conium

Cuprum metallicum

Cuprum oxydatum nigrum

Helminthochortos

Indigo

Mel cum sale

Naphthalin

Natrum phosphoricum

Ratanhia

Santoninum

Scirrhinum

Silicea

Spigelia

Tanacetum vulgare

Terebinthina

Murthy

I just found the rubric in Boericke, which I missed earlier.

ENURESIS - Incontinence (See Flow.) -- Acon., Agar., Apis., Arg. n., Arn., Ars., Atrop., Bell., Benz. ac., Calc. c., Canth., Caust., Cic., Cim., Cina., Con., Dulc., Equis., Eryng. aq., Eup. perf., Eup. purp., Ferr. m., Ferr. p., Gels., Hydrang., Hyos., Kali br., Kali n., Kali p., Kreos., Linar., Lupul., Lyc., Mag. p., Med., Nux v., Op., Petrol., Phos. ac., Physal., Plant., Puls., Rhus ars., Rhus t., Sabal, Sanic., Santon., Sec., Senega, Sep., Sil., Stram., Sul., Tereb., Thyr., Thuja, Tritic., Tub., Uran., Verbasc., Zinc. m.

I am giving all this information here not to prove a point, but for future reference, as I am sure this thread will be visited by many in future.

Murthy

Hi Sajjad

In my hurry to 'cut and paste'( as our friends call it :-) ), I missed to read your posts, in between.

You are right that now a days childern sleep late in the night thanks to T.V. and perhaps home work too. :-)

I will definitely try Tuberculinum later.

It is a very good complimentary of Cala.carb.

Murthy

Last sentence. Read 'calc carb'.

Murthy

So far we have taken more or less the common symptoms of the disease ignoring altogether her personal symptoms like thermal modalities, her interest in study/play, her behavior with her school fellows, her attitude towards her brothers/sisters, her desire/aversions regarding food/drinks and other personal symptoms which are not directly related to the complaint.These are the deciding symptoms but in absence of these we should hope for the good.
This is not to interfere your prescription but is only for discussion.
Sajjad.

Yes Sajjad

That would have been the ideal way.

I am still keeping my fingers crossed, despite all this discussion.

We wil definitely explore the areas you suggested, in case this remedy fails.

However, I feel Calc.carb will definitely improve her to some extant, as I believe in

'A single medicine can do all the good it can, provided it is administered correctly'.

We may find improvement in unexpected areas too. It is good to put childern once in a while on Calc.carb.

Dear Navneet

As I said in the beginning itself, we may have to try two,three remedies for permanent results.

Stick on with us, and we will do our best.

Murthy

Question is not worm or Bed-wetting. The matter is different people can identify different medicine. It is the way of looking the problem. Womrs can create bed wetting and bedwetting can also be one of the causes of worms.

It is not always that what your computer has identified is better then the other prescriptions. Cure can be by any of the many medicines.

In the above discussions you have also come to the sitituations that if on medicine will no work you will try another and if that will not work you will try the otherone.

In this way other advisors/Doctors have suggested that try 1st 'x' remedy and if not working try 'y'. But unfortunately I noticed that in many topics you have been very critical in those situations.

It is good we now understasnd other persons point of view.

Even worst person may have some small good point and should not be ourightly discouraged.

Hi Rajendra

Try this try that has to have some basis.

I too was thinking that worms can bring on bed wetting, but now I stand corrected.

I never objected when Cina was prescribed for this girl earlier.

Any way, thanks for prodding me incessantly.:-)

It helped me to clear up a few things.

Murthy

i am glad and wish you all the best in your research.

rsg

Thank you

Murthy

mr murthy when i suggested cina 30/200 i requested through this forum to give some time to cina as i have noticed its result even after one month and in actual practice we give placebo to satis fy the patient but every one was busy in proving and that is why i remained silent j k mohla

Dear Mohla

The mother of all materia medica are provings, and let us see Cina in Hering's guiding symptoms, about the mind symptoms of cina, grade 2 and grade 3.

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MIND. [1] [Cina.]
Loss of consciousness and frothing from mouth.
Hallucinations of sight, smell and taste.
Children wake up in evening or before midnight with fear or fright, jump up, see sights, scream, tremble and talk about it with much anxiety.
Delirium and crying out.
Child is whining and complaining ; very restless even during sleep ; it will not lie awake five minutes without crying ; it must be rocked, carried, or dandled upon the knee constantly, day and night ; does not want to be touched ; cannot bear you to come near it ; desires many things which it refuses when offered ; is not pleased or satisfied with anything ; uneasy and distressed all the time ; throws away everything given it, and cries about nothing ; often sullen and unwilling to play during day.
Pitiful weeping when awake. ¥è Hydrocephaloid.
Child cries piteously if one takes hold of it, or carries it.
Great earnestness and sensitiveness ; he is offended at slightest joke.
Fretting excites cough.
Usually good-natured child was cross, fretful, irritable and dissatisfied with everything, and passed urine involuntarily, with prostration. ¥è After remittent fever.
Child, though weak, was cross and obstinate, and cried when his will was not humored. ¥è Bronchitis.
Child exceedingly cross, cries and strikes at all around him.

Urinary:

URINARY ORGANS. [21] [Cina.]
Enuresis. ¥è Scarlatina.
Frequent urging, with passage of much urine, all day.
Involuntary emission of urine at night, with worm symptoms and ravenous appetite.
Passes urine involuntarily ; is irritable and prostrated. ¥è After intermittent fever.
Urine copious and involuntary. ¥è Bronchitis.
Urine turbid, becomes semisolid on standing. ¥è Intermittent fever.
Urine clear, or turns milky on standing. ¥è Chorea.

Sleep

SLEEP. [37] [Cina.]
Spasmodic yawning ; pains renewed by yawning which cannot be suppressed. ¥è Amenorrh©«a.
Sleeps erect, with head leaned backward or to right side.
Child hangs its head to one side, is drowsy.
Sudden distressing cries in sleep. ¥è Hydrocephaloid.
Grinding of teeth during sleep.
Tossing about during sleep, with lamentations and cries about colic. ¥è Hydrocephaloid.
Restless sleep broken by cough. ¥è Bronchitis.
Lying on belly. ¥è Intermittent.
Awakes from sleep trembling and frightened, with screams, and will not be pacified. ¥è Intermittent.
Wakes in morning, restless and lamenting, in a start.
Cannot sleep ; when falling asleep, starts, screams, turns over, kicks off bedclothes. ¥è Hydrocephaloid.
Child never sleeps long at a time. ¥è Intermittent. ¥è Atrophy.
Sleeplessness, with restlessness, crying and lamentations.
Child will not sleep unless rocked, or kept in constant motion.

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Observe this wording carefully

'very restless even during sleep'

'Involuntary emission of urine at night, with worm symptoms and ravenous appetite.'

'Child never sleeps long at a time. ¥è Intermittent.'

Now compare this with wording of the father.

'no signs of blisters only loss of appetite & short tempered she is,does not like food ,likes to have cold drinks & junk food,no rashes till date, sleeps tight & in v shape bedwetting & grinding occurs nearly at same time,quantity of urine is also heavy, does not wake up after urinating,constipation is also there but not in regular.'

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She has contra indications for cina in having no appetite and deep sleep.

The worms if present trouble the child mostly in the night, and the childern never sleep peacefully. They normally have itching of anus as the worms crawl out during the night to lay eggs outside.

Childern having worms normally have a good appetite, but won't improve because the worms share the nutrition part of the food.

These are the reasons I didn't wait out on Cina.

Cina is CONTRA INDICATED in childern having deep sleep. This one symptom is enough to rule out CINA.

I would have voted for Cina if she has restless sleep and good appetite. Without these two, the totality doesn't match and hence CINA can't help.

Murthy

I hope you are aware of Decha cords and Penta chords.

The top ten/ five symptoms are given in them.

You must be careful if any of the symptoms are contra indicated out of these, when you select the medicine.

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Cina

1. Children (especially dark-haired) with worm affections ; pale face, white about the mouth, boring of nose with finger, grinding of teeth at night, restless sleep, hunger, fever, etc.

2. Ill humour ; cannot be quieted ; dislikes caresses ; rejects everything offered : may want to be carried but is no better.

3. Spasmodic affections especially convulsions, chorea, whooping cough ; from intestinal irritation, particularly worms.

4. Ravenous appetite ; hunger soon after full meal ; craves many and different things, sweets.

5. Fevers, remittent, stimulating worm fever ; intermittent, in children, daily attacks at same hour ; no thirst during chill or heat.

Note : The alkaloid Santonine is specific for Ascaris Lumbricoides.

Murthy

This is from Dewey

CINA.

Who first proved this remedy ?
Hahnemann. Its pathogenesis is in the Materia Medica Pura.

What is Cina, where is it found and what is its alkaloid ?
It is the Artemesia cina, an aromatic plant growing in Europe and Asia. Our tincture is made from the flowers, which are dried, powdered and treated as described under Staphisagria ; its alkaloid is called Santonine, and it is poisonous.

What is the general action of Cina and its alkaloid Santonine ?
It is principally a children's remedy, corresponding to many conditions that may be referred to intestinal irritation, such as worms, etc.

What are the symptoms calling for Cina in worm affections ?
Sickly, pale face, with rings around the eyes ; gritting of the teeth at night ; canine hunger, or variable appetite ; the child picks its nose and cries out in its sleep ; jerking of hands and feet ; urine milky.

What are the mental symptoms of Cina ?
Children awake in a fright, scream, tremble and cannot be quieted ; they are proof against all caresses ; are cross, irritable, nervous and peevish ; they want to be rocked.

Murthy

Refer Naneet's mail of 2nd September which reads as under :-

''thanx fr ur response Mr. Murthy.
She is weak with sensitive &emotional nature urination occurs after 1 hr of sleep then 2 or 3 times after that.
'She does not feel ashamed as we never scolded her.
She was suffering from acute constipation by birth but now constipation is cured,but bedwetting did not.bedwetting is also from birth.

Thanx
Navneet'

It is not essential to remove 'Constipation' from the assessment as it was already cured. - This is what mentioned above. We are treating the present symptom and not the past treated ones.

There is no mention in the above noting that the child remains in deep sleep.- Is it necessary to take it also into account.

The other two problem are mentioned by Hanehamann - Grinding of teeth and bed wetting are there in the above noting given by you.

It was when you added -Constipation in your system that Cina was eliminated otherwise it was very well there in the identified remedies.

The difference of opinion can be on Potency - Whether 1st potency or 1x or 30 or 200.?

Calc. Carb - is an excellent remedy for worms for scrofolous children, fat, pale, lymphatic, head hot and perspiration at night.

We have not gone hrough into the above aspect.

To remove doubts, I have not prescribed for worms or bedwetting alone. It is the bedwetting and its cause.

I have seen that in some cases Cina causes Constipation and in that situation Natrum Muir 6x is added in the treatment.This may be the reason of elimination of Cina by the experts when this remedy was considered for Constipation.

Further if you are still not satisfied, we may have a debate on the various causes of grinding of teeth which you mentioned earlier.

Kindly replace the above 1st para after ' Navneet' - to the below mentioned wordings:-

Is it not essential to remove 'Constipation' from the assessment as it was already cured? - This is what mentioned above. We are treating the present symptom and not the past treated ones

The past history of the patient too is considered in chronic cases.

The 'present' symptoms are considered in acute cases.

Constipation is not some thing that stays cured, unless it is cured as part of the totality.

Murthy

How prominent is that symptom of dripping saliva from mouth during sleep?

Does it occur every day?

Murthy